I was over at Let Us Reason website reading up on some of the arguments used to counter the truth of One God in Christ Jesus when I noticed they were citing popular preachers definitions of the Godhead. What is striking is that there’s guys like Creflo Dollar describing God in terms that are not at all unlike Oneness Apostolic theology, in fact it sounds identical.
Now, everyone knows that I am not a fan of Creflo Dollar’s over-emphasis on money and materialism, neither do I agree with him doing things like starring in a Hip Hop music video. But, credit where credit is due, the man has described God in a way that makes a lot of sense, as in tune with the Bible.
Here’s what he said:
Creflo Dollar-”the trinity is of course God the father God the son God the holy Ghost. We have to be careful because religion has us sometime thinking we have three different Gods. You know there’s God here ..hey holy ghost- hey Jesus…its God one God one faith one baptism not three Gods not three faiths not baptism’s every time you mess up, one. God the father, one God, three functions one and different functions God functioning as a father- God functioning as a son -God functioning as the holy ghost. I am Creflo Dollar I’m a husband to my wife I’m, a father to my children I’m a pastor to gods sheep. Right now I’m not functioning as husband I am not functioning as a father I am functioning as one of the 5 fold ministry gifts to God’s sheep. Same guy other functions you follow me. One God other functions.”(Feb.19, 2001 World Changers program)
No, but wait… this is getting even more unusual. Here’s what Rod Parlsey another ‘TV preacher’ says about God. Sounds very much like a Oneness view of the Godhead to me.
Rod Parsley “God the father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, God three in one. The Holy Ghost is no different than Jesus and Jesus is no different than the Holy Ghost … water you see it… if you take that to a scientists and ask it to analyze that and tell you what it is. He won’t tell you its water he’ll say that’s two parts hydrogen one part oxygen. That’s H2O now if take this and boil it and I capture the steam and I take that to the scientist he won’t say its steam he’ll say its H2O if I take this and put it in the freezer and take it to the same scientist hand it to the scientist say analyze this for me he won’t say that’s ice he’ll say that’s H2O they’re all H2O but there different manifestations of the same thing.” ( Breakthrough9/19/2000)
No need for me to tell you that T.D. Jakes comes from a Oneness Pentecostal background, although he would call himself a Charismatic – which is the best description for him. However, his view of the Godhead is definitely a Oneness Pentecostal view of One God in Jesus Christ.
“The Trinity, the term Trinity, is not a biblical term, to begin with. It’s a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I’m not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, “Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside Him there is no other.” When God got ready to make a man that looked like Him, He didn’t make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul and spirit. We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration. It’s very important that we understand that, but I think that the first thing that every believer needs to do is to approach God by faith, and then having approached Him by faith, then they need to sit up under good teaching so that they can begin to understand who the God is that they have believed upon.” (“Living by the Word” on KKLA, hosted by John Coleman, Aug. 23, 1998)
Well, this all sounds too good to be true. So, here’s the bad news in it all… Benny Hinn is firmly in the Trinitarian view of the Godhead. So much so, that he could even be considered a Trithiest (i.e. believing in 3 gods).
Benny Hinn - “God the Father. ladles and gentlemen, is a Person, and He is a triune being by Himself, separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost… God the Father 1s a Person, God the Son Is a Person. God the Holy Ghost Is a Person. But each of them is a triune being by Himself. It I can shock you- and maybe I should- there’s nine of ‘em…
’God the Father, ladies and gentlemen. Is a Person with His own personal spirit, with His own personal soul, and His own personal spirit body. You say, 1 never read that.’ Well, you think you’re in this church to hear things that you’ve heard for the last fifty years? Ladles and gentlemen, this thing is in my book and was tested by three theologians… it’s all in the Word…” (TBN, October 13, 1999)
Thanks to Let Us Reason website for providing this information. I may not agree with all your views, but what you have exposed here is very interesting.
Posted by Tony Isaac on March 25, 2009 at 10:52 am
Personally, I don’t think that God is a trinity and scripture never alludes to that fact either. God is one, seperate and different from Jesus. Jesus has a beginning and has been described as the first born of all creation. God has no beginning, he has always existed. The holy spirit is simply God’s presence.
The two verses of scripture used to support the doctrine of trinity do not hold up to biblical scrutiny. The first being John 1: 1 & 2 – in the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. The same was with God is the beginning. Years of traditions makes us believe that these two verses are talking about one person, when in fact they are actually speaking about 2 different people with one of them (Jesus) originating from the other (God). That is not to demean Jesus in any way. He is divine and his divinity is never under question. If we look at John 1:1 from another translation (which I cannot remember now) it goes like this; in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was divine. A good way of explaining this would be to use an illustration I once saw on a website (I cannot particularly remember it now and I will paraphrase what was said). It said that to say John 1:1 was saying that Jesus and God were the same would be like saying this in the beginning God created woman and the woman was with man (Adam) and the woman was the man (Adam). That indeed sounds confusing because we know that the woman and the man are different. But if we say that the woman was with man (adam) and the woman was man (mankind or human), that speaks of the nature of the woman; she belongs to the species called man of which the man belongs to as well. So the reference to the Word being God is not to say that Jesus is God almighty but to say that Jesus and God have the same divine nature.
The other verse of scripture that seems to blatantly support this trinity doctrine is 1 John 5:7 – there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, these three are one. That verse only appears in the kjv and not other translations because it never existed in the original manuscripts. The kjv was translated from the Latin-Vulgate translation of scripture which was done by the catholic church and not from the original Hebrew-Greek Manuscripts. So they added that verse to support the trinty doctrine. You can check it on Google.
In my opinion, the oneness doctrine is just as questionable as the trinity doctrine. Oneness says God is one and manifests himself in three ways. This is not biblical, God can manifest himself in as many ways as He chooses to. While the trinity says that God is three in one. By its own admission it proposes a plurality of God but tries to deny this by saying that they are all one just like spirit, soul and body make up an individual. For God’s sake can we seperate the body from the soul and the spirt? Can each of them exist independently? Certainly not! The Benny Hinn’s take on it does not even deserve an answer, it is downright outlandish!
Anyways, this is my personal take on it. God bless.
Posted by Mike on April 1, 2009 at 6:42 pm
So are you saying that Jesus is not, in fact, God in the flesh? That He is *only* a created being, divine but not truly God?
And just a side note: KJV came from the Textus Receptus, while the “newer” translation (NIV, NLT, etc.) come from the Byzantine Majority Text. It is an entirely different line that the Latin Vulgate. The Vulgate comes mostly from the work of Jerome in the fifth century. If KJV came from the Vulgate, it would include the Apocrypha.
Posted by Mike on April 1, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Also, the version mentioned where it translates “… the Word was divine” or “… the Word was a god” is the New World Translation, aka the Jehovah’s Witnesses translation. You suggest googling the KJV; might I also suggest googling the scholarly credentials of those responsible for the NWT?
Posted by Tony Isaac on April 2, 2009 at 12:19 pm
The Word was Divine and the Word was a god are definitely two different things. I never said that the word was a god. Saying that would be to suggest that there are several gods and the word is one of them. The word was divine is not the New world translation, I will look for the version and post it when I find it.
And yes, I am in fact saying that Jesus is not God in flesh but IS the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD and we choose to ignore the many scriptural references to this fact. Bible says he (Jesus) is the first born of all creation. He is the ONLY begotten of the father. He learnt obedience by the things He suffered. He is subject to the father. He is heir to everything God created. And the list goes on and on.
And yes the KJV was definitely translated from the Latin-Vulgate. One of such proofs is the use of the name Lucifer in Isaiah 14. The name Lucifer can not be found anywhere in the original hebrew text, it is a latin name. The original Hebrew word there was translated by Jerome to the Latin word Lucifer and the KJV translators picked it up from there.
Posted by Minister Marcus on August 25, 2009 at 11:02 pm
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Posted by Tony Isaac on April 2, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Found it! It is The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed that translates the word as divine.
Posted by Ex-VCC member, never to return there but has good ongoing relationship with God on April 3, 2009 at 12:39 am
I think this is an interesting topic and would have to investigate and find scripture to substantiate any view that I have so as to be in line with what is written biblically but my immediate reaction upon reading all of the above is that I agree with TD Jakes when he says: We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.
I will come back to this blog when I have read up on this but remain interested in what other have to say on the matter.
Posted by Mike on April 3, 2009 at 7:22 pm
As I understand it – and forgive me if this is a simplification, although I think it’s fairly descriptive – Oneness Pentecostals view Father, Son, Holy Spirit as titles – or roles – of God (some flavors of it could be called “modalism”), whereas Trinitarian Pentecostals (and Trinitarians in general) view Father, Son, Holy Spirit as “persons” of God, eternally existent and distinct, but of the same substance of Jehovah.
Specifically, in my estimation, the word “persons” is really a huge point of contention on this matter. I personally prefer the term “aspects” – i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are aspects of the same God.
Both Trinitarians and Oneness agree that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, and that there is no other name under which man can be saved. Where Oneness believers and Trinitarian believers disagree is in this:
Oneness doctrine says the Jesus is the Father in the flesh, and that the Holy Spirit is the way the Father manifests Himself to His Church now that Christ has ascended after the Resurrection.
Trinitarian doctrine says that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all aspects of the same God; that are distinct, but they are not separate. That is, Jesus is from God, and is very God Himself.
And unlike what Mr. Hinn might state, God is not a Trinity of Trinities. That’s absurd and wholly unbiblical. Unless you’re a Mormon; then that might make some sense (Mormons are, in fact, tritheistic).
And if I’ve misrepresented the Oneness viewpoint, feel free to correct.
Posted by Tony Isaac on April 4, 2009 at 1:10 am
Aspects of the same God? Then this God must have an identity crisis. If Jesus is God, then you mean He was praying to himself? John 1:2 says “the same was with God in the begining”. How can God be Himself and be with Himself at the same time.
Aha, when Jesus was baptized by John and they heard the voice say this is my beloved son in whom I am well please, was it the same person talking to himself? Let’s face it, trinitarians unwittingly promote polytheism, worship of multiple gods in a bid to promote this three in one dogma. This too flies in the face of oneness, because how can the one God now tell himself that He is pleased with himself.
Mike, can you please supply scriptures that say God is a trinity and that say Jesus is God?
God bless
Posted by Minister Marcus on August 25, 2009 at 11:09 pm
The closest that I can find to this point would be in John
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14: 9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Posted by Tony Isaac on August 28, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Hi Minister Marcus,
How then do we explain these scriptures:
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7: 55 (He should have seen one person)
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Acts 10: 38 (God anointed Himself?)
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13: 33 (Did God raise Himself?)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor 8: 6 (Please note the use of “of whom” in reference to God and the “by whom” in reference to Jesus)
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3: 9 (Clearly 2 different persons)
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thes 1 : 10
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Heb 2: 9
John 1 : 1 seems to support this trinity doctrine but if we look at the original greek word that was translated WORD and the greek word it was derived from we will see it a little differently.
The original greek word that was translated as WORD is LOGOS. And this means: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):–account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
And it is gotten from the Greek word LEGO which means: a primary verb; properly, to “lay” forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:–ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
The WORD or LOGOS was simply God’s thought which He expressed when He spoke “and God said” by which He created all things. That thought/word was made flesh and was called Jesus. Hence we see scriptures say God did things by Jesus, created the world through Him etc. Jesus is the physical expression of God but that does not make him God almighty. Just like an autobiography of person describes a person’s life but is not the person.
Posted by 1st_veracity on May 2, 2009 at 9:45 am
When the ‘tablets’ were placed in the Arc and regarded as the dwelling of the Holy of Holies, was God really all in that box? Was He not a pillar of clouds in the day, and a pillar of fire by night?
He is everywhere He wants to be all at once. As parents we sometimes do things like jump, or pick up toys, or walk like we are running so the child can keep up with us, as examples of things that need to be done; to teach. It seems silly, but the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
A heart truly seeking God will not discount a new teaching, but seek it to make sure they are not missing a part of God. When you love someone, you want to know all you can about them!!
Matthew 3:13-17
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”.
If we follow His example, His teaching, will He not say, this is My Son or Daughter in whom I am well pleased? This all by example, Jesus being the way, following Him. God can do all things.
Can anyone name something God can’t do? And remember, whatever you come up with, He could still do it if He chose to. Jeus is all the fullness of the Godhead. Never become satisfied with where you are in Christ, there is more and more.
Posted by Tony Isaac on May 5, 2009 at 9:40 am
Sorry 1st_veracity, I am finding it difficult to understand what you are saying and how it relates to God being a trinity or oneness. Could you please clarify.
Thanks
Posted by Tony Isaac on May 5, 2009 at 9:41 am
Please excuse my typo
Posted by peter on July 31, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Isaac….read the chapter of John 1:1-15 …….. meditate on it ………..you’ll find the answer ……. you may have read it a hundred times undoubtedly …….. read it just once again as the Lord said “Man shall not live by bread alone but by ‘every’ word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”
Posted by Tony Isaac on August 1, 2009 at 11:20 am
Peter, Pls read my previous comments about John 1. God cannot be with Himself and be Himself at the same time. In the gospels, who was He praying to? Himself?
All these are doctrines we inherited from the catholic church that we have refused to let go of.
Posted by Minister Marcus on August 25, 2009 at 11:12 pm
It takes an act of God to convince a person of the Oneness faith to believe in the Triunity of God because no matter how many scriptures you point out to them; they will not beleive it. I have a friend who grew up Oneness and he is wrestling with what he reads in the word about Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost because of it’s conflicts. It makes our God seem Bipolar
Posted by jesusblogger on August 27, 2009 at 9:43 pm
I think it unfair to say that Oneness belief makes God seem bipolar? The Oneness doctrine maintains the unity of God in accordance with the scripture.
Trinity on the other hand can make God seem like 3 seperate persons in a tri-thiestic way. Confusing Christians as to if they believe in One God or Three.
Posted by Tony Isaac on August 28, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Jesusblogger,
I reread the post and I have to admit, you are very right in terms of Creflo Dollar and Rod Parsley’s definition of the trinity being identical to the oneness doctrine. Which even shows there is something wrong with this so called Trinity doctrine. We cannot prove it from scripture.
However, while responding to Minister Marcus’s comment, I was even able to undertand it all in more detail – I think both trinitarians and you guys (oneness) are wrong. No pun intended. This confusion stems from the fact that Greek was such a rich language with so many expressions and it would take many english words to adequately translate some of it.
Over the coming days, I will compile all that I have studied and post it on my blog.
Posted by Edward Forman on September 7, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Hi, I find the (one) that God used to describe himself lends credibility to the oneness view of God. Yet this is not the main focus. Matt. 28:19 was instruction and Acts 2:38 was obedience to that instruction. Only oneness proponents view the apostles salvation message in the Book of Acts as doctrine. The man Jesus according to Heb. 1:4 was made,and received his name by inheritance. All men have a given and an inherited name. Their inherited name is their father’s and family name. This being true then our heavenly Father’s Name is Jesus and according to Eph. 3:15 all the family in heaven and earth are named. This is why all the apostles baptized in the Name of Jesus. Oneness and Trinitarians may not have the perfect description of the Godhead but Oneness do believe as the Apostles, that Jesus is the (one) name of God and His family.
Posted by T. on September 28, 2009 at 1:10 pm
These 3 links will tell you the real truth about Jesus Christ of Nazareth by Jack Van Impe himself (The Walking Bible: http://www.jvim.com/scripturememorization.htm)
Jack Van Impe – Who is Jesus? – Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVtVxmujUjc
Jack Van Impe – Who is Jesus? – Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nngHelc5Oc
Jack Van Impe – Who is Jesus? – Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz–sUeNaww
**1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
**1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
**1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Posted by jesusblogger on September 29, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Thanks for sharing, the written Bible is proof enough of who Jesus is. He is God incarnate, the Word dwelling among us, the Almighty God, The Everlasting Father and the prince of Peace.
Posted by Preacher man on October 26, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Pride comes before destruction, you oneness people are twisting the word, and you not afraid to do it,
you better be careful that you name of not rejected out the book of life
and for the Blogger (Tony Isaac) : you really sitting there reading a word that proclaim the trinity is but added by Catholic devils(1 John 5:7), you mean the devil has a hand in the word of God
Yall best be careful because the right way to beleive if Just like this, Three, Jesus name baptism everyman must receive the Holy Ghost,
stop teaching you tradition and teach the word of God, in Jesus Mighty name
Posted by Preacher man on October 26, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Pride comes before destruction, you oneness people are twisting the word, and you not afraid to do it,
you better be careful that you name of not rejected out the book of life
and for the Blogger (Tony Isaac) : you really sitting there reading a word that proclaims the trinity is but added by Catholic devils(1 John 5:7), you mean the devil had a hand in the WORD of God, blasphemy!!!
Yall best be careful because the right way to beleive if Just like this, Three, Jesus name baptism everyman must receive the Holy Ghost,
stop teaching you tradition and teach the word of God, in Jesus Mighty name
Posted by Tony Isaac on November 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Preacherman, stop acting like a child and search your scripture thoroughly. Have you ever seen 1 john 5 : 7 in any other bible version apart from the king James? Do your due diligence and check!
Posted by truthseeker on November 7, 2009 at 7:13 am
I have been torn by this question for some time now. I just want to make sure that I worship the Lord as the Lord tells ALL CHRISTIANS to do and not to pass judgement on another person. We could debate for years on this topic. I have no answers, I continue to pray to my Father, in Jesus name, read the word and try to live right. I have faith in God and trust the he will guide me to the truth, that will come from GOD and not man. One thing all of the different text, that the quoted scriptures come from, have the same title, BIBLE…Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Pry for me as I will be praying for all of you. God Bless.